Episode 17: Radhika Patnala, PhD

The following interview was conducted in-class, during the Fall 2021 session of Hidden Figures: Brain Science through Diversity, taught by Dr. Adema Ribic at the University of Virginia. What follows is an edited transcript of the interview, transcribed by Nathaniel Andreas Weldon, Lindsay Elizabeth Aschmies, Krithi Chakrapani, Rhea Mina Mahuli, Jahnavi Chindepalli, and Meghana Malyala, who also drafted Dr. Patnala’s biography. The final editing was by Dr. Adema Ribic. The original recordings are available in Podcasts.

Dr. Radhika Patnala is a neuroscientist, artist, and entrepreneur. Dr. Patnala’s scientific work addressed microglial cells and neuroprotective effects of histone deacetylase inhibitors. She transitioned into art and entrepreneurship and founded Munich-based Sci-Illustrate in 2017, which provides scientific illustration, marketing, and business development services to universities, life science, and biotech companies. Dr. Patnala was commissioned for a number of prominent art projects, including multiple covers for top science journals. She and her work “COVID Dreams” was featured in an International Women’s Day article by BBC. In 2021, she has co-curated with UNESCO the “Creative Resilience: Art by Women in Science” exhibit. Dr. Patnala has also been a keynote speaker at the World Health Organization global conference on communicating science during health emergencies. Sci-Illustrate has been featuring women in science through art and words for the last 2 years as a passion project.

Dr. Patnala, thank you for speaking with us today. You have not continued lab research after earning your Ph.D. Did you feel any kind of judgment or pressure from your peers at the time when you told them you would not be doing the same thing they were doing?

 The judgment did not come from peers, as most of my peers felt that the grass was greener on the other side, but a lot of the judgment came from superiors. There were a few statements like “I looked at your list of publications and you seem to be doing fine in science, what went wrong?” Everyone assumed that I was downgrading somehow; that I was not able to find a job in science or become a lab leader. I have to clarify that it was very difficult to find a job in the specific field that I wanted to pursue. It’s not a bad thing if you enjoy explorative science and you're okay changing your research subjects every one or two years, but I had very strong rules for myself. I could see myself enjoying science only if certain criteria were met. I think people like to give advice and it's, of course, good to take it, but you always need to take it with a pinch of salt. They may not have a full understanding of your skills, strengths, and abilities.

Did you encounter such judgment because people thought you were quitting science?

From the outside, it appears that you're giving up something to take on something else. But in reality, you're not giving up anything, because if you've done something for 10 or 11 years then it's a part of you. The only thing that you’re doing is getting another identity using what you already are.

Have you ever formally trained in the arts?

No. I used to take watercolor and pencil sketching classes in the 7th grade, but that's honestly where my art education stopped. Most of the things I learned were by myself. If I have to make something specific, I go and learn how to make it. That’s basically how I function.

How does that compare to science, where you have to formally train for many years before being “allowed” to work in a field?

At senior levels of research, like in the post-doc, science also expects you to switch your expertise every one or two years to be able to pursue a scientific career, and I feel like that is sometimes a waste of experience and expertise that highly qualified people have accrued at that stage. I have known people who started in neuroscience and, after one year, had to work on cancer biology just because it was the only opportunity presented. These quick switches also happen in science and people just expect you to do it. Of course, you can't treat people like a physician if you haven't really been trained for it, so I think this comes back to the idea of science being a discipline where training is essential. You have to show that you have a Masters's or a Ph.D. to be considered a scientist or be considered as having a basic level of knowledge. It is true that artists are more accepting and that anyone can be an artist because it’s so subjective. Even if you're making a small pencil sketch, you can call it your art, and it can be looked at as art. But, if you are looking for a job in an art studio, they will also look at degrees, as do many other art jobs. Otherwise, if you want to practice art like the way I’m doing, it’s all in the open. I just make art and put it on my website and that’s it. I don't need anyone’s permission to do that.

With respect to your art, how did you break? How did you make your name known, contact your first company, or publish your first drawing? Was it difficult?

It was not very difficult, it was just very long. It took me almost three years of constant creation, learning, and publicizing for other people to realize that I was doing something different. I think it's more of a sustained activity, so it’s difficult, but it’s spread over time. Eventually, you don't remember it as being difficult, and in some way, it becomes easier with time. These days, things are much easier because of social media that no one is curating. If you have something and if you want to tell other people about it, then social media is the easiest way to go about it.

With respect to the travel that you've done throughout the globe, did you ever feel that there was a consistent barrier between yourself and other scientists in terms of language or culture? 

Science is one of those unique places where you don’t feel that barrier. The global scientific community is very close-knit. It helps that everyone speaks English and if you speak English, then pretty much the entire world of science opens up to you. I also think science is one of those wonderful places where you get to engage with different cultures at the same wavelength. You have the same interest and passion in science, so it is one of those very curated places where meeting other cultures is always a pleasure.

Were there any challenges that you faced either because you were a woman or because of your race in the past?

Personally, I was lucky to not face any of those challenges during my education and training. I always had nice people to work with and very multicultural labs, universities, and environments. Until I finished my Ph.D., I really felt like the whole world was at my feet. There was no barrier. I had no experience of any kind of discrimination up until that point. The only time that I felt like there was something off was when I tried to go for a postdoc interview. I was asked a few deeply personal questions that are in fact illegal to ask in most places. That was a harsh reminder that I might be judged on different criteria because of the age that I'm at and because my personal life is being held into account while judging me for a professional position.

How does a day in your life look like?

My general workday has been changing quite a bit ever since I started my company. I used to have a lot of time, and that was when I initiated the Women in Science series. Now, I'm working fairly hard on a day-to-day level. We have multiple projects going on with multiple clients. I would almost say that around 40 percent of my day goes into project management, handling my team, and the different projects that are going on. The other 30 percent goes into actually doing the work, so I do a lot of illustration; a lot of creating artworks for journals, journal covers, that sort of stuff. The rest goes into answering emails.

What is your favorite medium?

Right now I'm quite liking the whole universe of 3D design.

For a lot of artists, social media is the main source of advertisement. How much time do you spend on social media to promote your work?

I used to post on social media quite a bit in the first two years when I was really in the phase of making people know what I’m doing. But since then, the frequency I post on social media has progressively decreased because I just don’t have time. I’m actually doing the work. I’m also very selective about what I post on social media because I’ve really come to the understanding that people’s time and attention are very precious and if you don’t have something important to say or contribute, then you might as well not say much.

How were you able to build your team and find people who had a similar passion to you or who are in such a niche profession that you’re in?

Through social media. There are a lot of other people like me doing this kind of work and eventually we spend time in the same space and we get to know each other. As to my team-that happened very slowly. I think it’s difficult to find good people at the same wavelength and the same quality of skills that you’re looking for, so it took me a very long time to build up a team, but I think I have quite a good team right now!

What do you like to do outside of work or during your free time?

When you turn your hobby into your profession, then there is not so much you’re doing outside of work. I have not yet achieved the elusive concept of work-life balance, so maybe if you check in with me after two or three years, I might be a better human being and do something outside of work. 

Is this what you envision yourself doing long term or do you have other goals or aspirations in the future?

I enjoy what I’m doing quite a bit because it’s my own company, so I can more or less determine the direction that I want to go in. We have done many different things over the last four years, and I feel like there is this nice flexibility there for choosing different things to do. Do I see myself doing this in the next few years? As I said, when you turn your hobby into a profession there’s also the offset of getting tired of your hobby, but that is human nature and I’m going to keep doing this as long as the money rolls in. The simple fact is that we all need sustenance.

Have you noticed that the concept of work-life balance is used as a tool to push women and minorities out of science? Do you see that in the art world too?

I think this whole work-life balance concept is very personal, and it really depends from person to person and their personality. If you look at my husband, who’s a scientist as well, you’ll find that he has a perfect work-life balance. I have to say that I had a better work/life balance when I was a scientist because you can do as much as you can in the lab and then you can check off, go home, and do something else. Now I am an entrepreneur-I work for myself and sometimes it’s hard to switch off! It’s very nuanced, this conversation of work-life balance and how it applies to different genders. I think it’s also important to see how these questions are framed. A question like “How do you balance everything?” comes with the pre-existing idea that she has something to balance.

We talk a lot about parallels between art and science. Have you seen any parallels and what, in your opinion, are the biggest differences between the world of arts and the world of science?

I have found that in both arts and science, especially if you’re a scientist and an artist, you’re really driven by creativity. You cannot possibly solve a scientific problem or a scientific question without being creative. You have to problem-solve all the time. You have to think outside the box. The same thing happens with the artists. I would say that creativity is the foundation of being a good scientist and, of course, also being a good artist. Another parallel that I found was that both of these fields are very explorative in nature. From my perspective, science is human beings exploring the world outside them, and art is trying to make sense of your own thoughts and how you interpret the world. As to differences: in science, we have a scientific method, without which nothing floats. In art, no matter what you make, it’s true. However, as much as an artist has the freedom to interpret scientific concepts in any way they want, when doing scientific illustration it is your responsibility to make it as accurate as possible.

You’ve published art in many renowned scientific journals. Are there any other companies or organizations that you would like to be published in or work with in the future?

I’m sure I have more things to ask the universe, but I feel very lucky at the moment. 

One of the biggest differences between arts and sciences is in the publication of the work. When you publish your artwork, you can simply post it and let the public be the judge of it. Do you think that science is slowly moving towards that through the preprints?

I definitely see it moving towards that, but it also comes with its downsides. Scientific experiments are already pretty messy and there’s a lot of noise in biological systems to start with. If you add another layer of scientific publications which have not been vetted, it will eventually become very difficult to find trustable sources and that might make scientific publishing even more powerful. 

You’re from India, you went to Australia, and then you went to Germany. How was it going through and trying to live in such different cultures for you?

It was a shock, but it was a good shock. Going from India to Australia was one of the biggest differences culturally. Living in different cities is a pleasure of its own, because only if you live in a city can you truly experience it and fall in love with it. I think that is one of those rare pleasures that being a scientist offers you. You get to travel the world more or less and it was a wonderful experience for me.

Have you traveled around Germany? How does Munich compare to everything else?

I did travel around Germany and I think it’s very interesting. Every city has its own personality, but the beauty is that once you’re in science, you’re surrounded by the scientific community and it's almost like the basal equalizer. If I meet a scientist in Berlin or I meet a scientist in Munich, there won’t be much of a difference between them. Munich in itself is a very nice city. Many of my clients are from Munich and they do some really interesting research. I like how posh everything is here.

 Do you think you would have been as successful as an illustrator if you haven’t had the Ph.D.?

Would I have been a good scientific illustrator without the scientific education? I would definitely say not because I spent 11 years training in the science field and, knowingly or unknowingly, it gave me a lot of soft skills. It gave me soft skills such as teamwork and the skill of learning all the time because when you’re doing research, every day is a new day. You might find a certain molecule that you are interested in and then you spend the next week learning everything about that molecule. The ability to constantly learn, the ability to work well with others, the ability to communicate, the ability to not lose hope and give up on life, those are all the small things that get almost ingrained in you just because doing a Ph.D. or a Masters is so difficult.

Do you have any advice for our students for switching to other fields or having an alternative career path? How to get there?

I think one of the biggest difficulties is figuring things out about your own identity. For me, the worst part of the experience was basically shedding the identity of what I expected myself to be and then building it back up. I think it’s very important for you to give yourself that space and time, and already accept that you will be donning different identities based on what you will eventually end up doing. That being said, scientific education is pretty cool in that way. When you do your bachelor’s, your masters, or even your Ph.D., people think that Ph.D. is the final frontier of scientific education, but it’s actually just a basic level of knowledge that opens up a lot of doors into other places that actually need people who have a good understanding of the sciences or of the medical profession. The world is a very big place and there are a lot of professions out there that you’ve not really thought about in university. Eventually, you will find them, and all of these job profiles are fantastic, so don’t get bottled into the expectation of a certain professional path. The world is really open to finding a profession that makes you happy or just making one yourself as I did. Give yourself that space.

 This interview was conducted during the Fall Session of UVA’s Hidden Figures class in 2021. 

Class roster: Brink, Julia Elizabeth; Abraham, Carly Elizabeth; Rose, Odell Bayou; Kang, Elizabeth; Posner, Chloe Grace; Luscko, Caroline Ann; Pappagallo, Julia Dominique; Ware, Liza Elizabeth; Murphy, Ryan Martin; Faisal, Zainab; Fastow, Elizabeth; Walker, Mary-Catherine; Petz, Kaitlyn Dorothy; Terblanche, Alexandra Savenye; Nguyen, Katie; Guttilla, Gianna Marie; Hoang, Chloe Nam; Grace, Ann Brown; Smith, Charles Cornelius; Sears-Webb, Delaney Jean; Abed, Jamil; Miao, Julia Stephanie; Johnson, Catherine Anne; Kim, Evalyn; Lee, Sarah; Pietsch, Maggie Malia; Cheng, Kaitlyn Jiaying; Freud, Jordan Maria; Patel, Sonia; Silbermann, Katherine Elizabeth; Lumpkin, Justin; Lemley, Rachel Ann; Hall, Maria Elizabeth; Nugent, Elise Genevieve; Limon, Safiye; Mangan, Erva; Ali, Sophie; Muse, Morgan Noelle; Miley, Sareena Elizabeth; Bennett, Bailey Grace; Mollin, Hannah Beth; Nguyen, Daniel Van; Englander-Fuentes, Emilu Maria; Pest, Marshall Sinclair; Mahuli, Rhea Mina; Chindepalli, Jahnavi; Malyala, Meghana; Weldon, Nathaniel Andreas; Aschmies, Lindsay Elizabeth; Chakrapani, Krithi; Heintges, Bella Grace; Baker, Gabriella Christine; Bonsu, Tenneh Ina; Hall, Ann M; Rodriguez, Kaitlyn; Simmons, Emma Isabela; Davenport, Julia Barrett; Andrews, Tara; Ramirez, Alexa Hidalgo; Petrus, Sarah Anne; Singh, Aanika; Wilson, Sydney Paige; Younan, Krestina. 

TA: Kipcak, Arda. Instructor: Ribic, Adema, PhD.